You see now-I KNEW it was just a matter of time before that happened and I was a shortie in comparison! :P Finding it hard to say all ya need to in one post, eh? heheehe hardee har har... :^D

Victoria, now you say you sent Joy a "joke"? So why did you say Joy lied the other day? I'm dissappointed.

Sue, I hope your child's okay.

Nick and Vlad, breaking into the Guestbook when Carolyn closed it? Come on! Do you just sit at the computer all day and post? Don't you have a lives? (This applies to me too.)

Yes, Vlad, NOW you are posting without venom. Now that it has been pointed out to you for the umpteenth time. Still, thank you.

Did you notice something else? Things she did NOT say? She did NOT single me out for any chastisement in the post to which you alluded. She did NOT say she wanted me to leave. She did not come right out and blame me for any of it, period. Of course I am to blame to an extent, but not just by my mere presence, as seems to be the reasoning of some. She only thanked you for sticking around. This in contrast to those who did not. I don't think that is much of a compliment. Heck, she did not specifically thank Lem or Sue or Chuck for sticking around either. Does this imply she would rather they leave?

If the book doesn't fit,
We must never quit!!

What a picture... you and Nick with Poo in a life-boat... Hey, maybe Carlos will use THAT as an example, instead of miners. But that might not work... let's see... to save you and Nick we have to save Poo... hmmmmmmm... dunno Vlad... I sure do like ya a lot... but hey. :op

Nice assumption o blind-as-a-bat. The emails she receives are automatic emails generated from every post made. The board is set up 2 email her everytime someone posts. They are just for her information, not from individuals.

I don't like your earlier comments on women and I don't believe you could really believe that

And the way I see it, I came up with whole truths and facts that you could not and did not answer at all. Not even a little. Your half truths, oh hell, let's just call them what they are, LIES, were no reeponses to the facts that I have brought up. You have made false accusations or racism, admitted they were misteks, and refused to even apologize for your slanderous comments. You are a worse than a moron. You are a liar.

"I responded with the facts."

You have yet to respond with a single fact yet.

"I was there so I know."

Given your propnsity for lies, I doubt you know anything.

" Then you repeated your half-truths and smears and said you had "won"."

If ANYONE repeated half-truths, it was you, Repeating that KPFA received no federal funding, repeating that certain people were racist, repeating that we were trying to deceive people. These were half truths. Not my TRUE facts.

"Calling your own personal interpretation "truth" and mine "lies""

Honey there is nothing personal about my interpretation. I was quoting interpretations from people actually there and from police reports, articles and such. I dug up the definition ofthe term violent and it applied in this case. YOU had NO REPONSE but to insist it wasn't violent even in the face of the fact that it clearly was!

"and saying you "won" makes it so, according to you."

I clearly did win. I was not teh one who resorted to lies. I was not teh one who resorted to slander because I couldn't make a point. I was not the one who had to make up facts and then refuse to admit they were wrong when soemone posted financial statements that proved me wrong.YOU did all these things, and you have yet to admit your many mistakes.

Since from the beginning you did not have an open mind your interpretation of events has no validity as far as I'm concerned."

"I have an open mind to facts, not your banter and lies.

"Say or think what you want."

Isn't that what this is about?

"You can't control my thinking."

Even if you did any thinking of your own, I wouldn't want to control it. I just enjoy proving you wrong, and I do it well.

"Blame the liberals."

Blame the conesrvatives, opps.... I mean the fascists.

"The above link has a description of events, which is biased by the protesters, granted, but I believe tells the truth."

Ahh yes, save pacifica.net, a truly unbiased and free source. Yes THIS is the truth. YOU make me laugh.

"Aaron, sometimes I think maybe you're really a member of the Democratic Party pretending to be a conservative Republican in order to make them look bad and get Republicans to change their affiliation."

That's ok. It doesn't surprise me that you have to come up with lame accusations like this in orderto keep from admitting you are wrong. You have brought no facts to the table, only rhetoric. You have been proven wrong several times, only to refuse to admit it. You have been proven to use stereotypical thinking, only to turn around and acuse others of the same. And you have refused to think on your own, only spout the latest andmost convenient liberal rhetoric and then get offended when it is countered and rebuffed with facts and/or logic. On top of that, you make gigantic assumptions about people you have never even met and purport them as truth. "Joy is a police officer and knows how to lie"? You dodge the central issue and say that we just want the radio station shut down. You call us fascists because we disagree with your slanted and narrow view. Your insecurity and allergy to the truth shines in every post you make.

"Maybe Joy's really a pro-abortion radical feminist posing as a pro-life conservative to promote the liberals' stereotypes of pro-life conservatives."

Maybe you are a hard-core right winger trying to make liberals look as stupid as they can be. Nah, you're just a moron.

"You, Joy, Vlad and Ted act as if you were a charicature of pro-life conservatives created by a pro-abortion liberal."

And you act worse than the worst caricature I have ever seen of the dumb, thoughtless, knee-kerk, head-in-the-sand, reactionary, allergic to all facts liberal that I have ever seen. This is a new low, even for you.

"Michael, thank you. As often happens, you rebutted Aaron better than I ever could."

He didn't rebut a single thing and has spewed hatred since he came on here. At one point you even shouted at him. But, being the self loathing liberal that you are, you look to him for help when you can't get the job done yourself. What he says about women, he is certainly right when it comes to you.

"I don't like your earlier comments on women and I don't believe you could really believe that, but I appreciate your more recent ones."

Calling your own personal interpretation "truth" and mine "lies" and saying you "won" makes it so, according to you. Since from the beginning you did not have an open mind your interpretation of events has no validity as far as I'm concerned. Say or think what you want. You can't control my thinking. Blame the liberals.

The above link has a description of events, which is biased by the protesters, granted, but I believe tells the truth.

Aaron, sometimes I think maybe you're really a member of the Democratic Party pretending to be a conservative Republican in order to make them look bad and get Republicans to change their affiliation. Maybe Joy's really a pro-abortion radical feminist posing as a pro-life conservative to promote the liberals' stereotypes of pro-life conservatives. You, Joy, Vlad and Ted act as if you were a charicature of pro-life conservatives created by a pro-abortion liberal.

As for you Michael.

"By the way, MAKE me f*** off, loser. Empty words from an empty mind."

"LOL, what an child. "No ... YOU Are!" Nighty night, Arror."

And let's not forget that you are so stubborn you must make up definitions of words to weasel out of admitting that you were bested in a verbal spar. But you want me to make you fuck off?? I'll tell you what. I live in the Denver, CO area. Anytime you want to meet and settle this you just give me a holler when you are in my neck of the woods. We'll settle this in a way that won'tleave you the option of weaseling out. Say the word and it shall be done. This is not a threat but an offer, you only need decline or accept.

" He KNOWS all protesters don't care about their causes. He KNOWS the shot was fired by one of the protesters He has no basis for that knowledge, or any facts to back up his claim as he chastises you for, but that's ok, he "knows.""

"Protesters don't CARE about the causes. This was clearly done out of rage towards the station, as were the riots. They definitely DID SHARE the agenda. Your ludicrous, baseless theory that someone did this to make the rioters look bad is insanely stupid."

It doesn't get any emptier than you, Femefuckface.
Femeturd - fuck off!.
Again, you are full of shit.
What I mean is get your head out of your ass and stop spewing lies!
This is more than I can say for the many tasteless, brainless, and thoughtless statements you have made. Grow up!

Monica, you have got to be the biggest jackass on the face of the Earth. NOT ONCE have I lied. Not once have I distorted facts and not once have I knowingly made a statement that wasn't true. FUrthermore, YOU have tried to smear and slanderme. YOU have lied. YOU have misrepresentedand YOU have tried to pigeonhole all you disagree with, slapping the fascist label on anyone who dare cross you. You are the fascist. Your smear tactics would make Hitler jealous.

"At least I'm not so arrogant and narrowminded as to assume that anyone who doesn't share my political beliefs is not "intellectually enlightened"."

My opinion about your intellectual enlightenment has nothing to do with whether or not your political beliefs coincide with mine. It has to do with the fact that you don't know your ass from a hole in the ground, that you make false statements and accusations, that you spout the same liberal rhetoric and label anyone who contradicts it with facts, and that you can't think for yourself. You are ignorant and intellectually stunted, not to mention narrow-minded.

"I don't belittle and smear people for disagreeing with me."

You care about putting out your own twisted version of events to smear anyone who doesn't share your rightist viewpoint or gets in the way of your group having control of the country.

" And like I said before, you aren't intellectually enlightened enough for conservatism."

Protesters don't CARE about the causes. This was clearly done out of rage towards the station, as were the riots. They definitely DID SHARE the agenda. Your ludicrous, baseless theory that someone did this to make the rioters look bad is insanely stupid.

"It could be someone who shared the same agenda as the people who wanted to shut down the station or even someone trying to shoot at someone in the street and the bullets got into the office by accident."

Yeah, one of those conservative Berekely citizens. I am dying laughing over here.

"Since we don't know who did it we can't know. You are making assumptions to back up your bias."

So you can't say for a fact that I am wrong then, can you?? I am making some pretty logical assumptions based on some supporting facts.

"You call it what you want."

I'm gonna call it what it is, unlike you.

"The ones who tried to take over the station in my opinion were the people who got on the Pacifica Board who didn't share the philosophy of Pacifica founders and KPFA station and staff and the KPFA staff, listeners and community resisted the takeover."

well lets look at this quote:

"Station critics picketed Pacifica and KPFA and held a rally outside the buildings Wednesday. Fabbri said that crowds broke down the station's door and that Pacifica employees fled to a location she said she did not feel safe disclosing. She said Pacifica has requested federal mediation to defuse the crisis."

So once again facts refute your opinion.

"I maintain it was a peaceful protest and not a riot."

Yet another example of how facts contradict your opinion.

"I have a right to say and think this."

And I have the right to say you are wrong, which you are.

Its obvious we have different opinions and you won't change my opinion (except to the extent of turning me off to conservatism forever) and I won't change yours."

So who was it? One of those "conservative" Berkeley-ites??? It obviously was someone who had the same agenda as the protesters and quite possibly one of the protesters themselves. I don't give a damn that "some people" condemned it. Some person fired the shots. That is violence!

"the police initially didn't want to make arrests, and the manager ordered citizens' arrests of all people in the station, including staff who were there to work. "

Again this is pointless. Police don't WANT to make arrests for petty riots like this. It’s their job. You obviously can't read at all.

"What I read is a description of a non-violent protest that a person on the other side falsely characterized as violent. "

Well let's examine the definition of violent since you obviously don't know what the word means.

Mirriam-Websters Dictionary defines violent as follows:

"vi·o·lent (v -l nt)
adj.
1. Marked by, acting with, or resulting from great force.
2. Having or showing great emotional force
3. Marked by intensity; extreme
4. Caused by unexpected force or injury rather than by natural causes
5. Tending to distort or injure meaning, phrasing, or intent. "

So we have people taking over a radio station, gunshots being fired, lawbreaking "protests", police being called in, several dozen arrests, and physical confrontation with authorities. Sounds pretty violent to me! I call them riots, and I have the facts to back it up.

"" Can't you read?" The fact that I don't share your bias doesn't mean I can't read. Can you?"

You don't know this. And even if it was, it was only one individual acting against the wishes of the other protesters, whose leaders condemned the act.
The facts the some people condemned it doesn't change the facts.
It shows shows the shooting was not representative of the protests. "The incident with the shots was NOT part of the protests. There was NO RIOT." They were violent riots where police came in to keep the peace.

When the manager the Pacifica Board brought from Texas called the police, after people came to the station when they heard the plug pulled on the News, the police initially didn't want to make arrests, and the manager ordered citizens' arrests of all people in the station, including staff who were there to work.

What I read is a description of a non-violent protest that a person on the other side falsely characterized as violent.
" Can't you read?"

""It is a mutiny," Fabbri said. "We have not locked out the staff, we have placed them on indefinite administrative leave until this calms down. This confrontation has been violent from day one. We've received death threats, we have been followed. We feel very unsafe and threatened." Founded by pacifists after World War II, the network has always prided itself on offering listeners a left-leaning alternative to commercial and mainstream public radio. It has weathered many labor disputes, but no one can remember a conflict as ugly as the one unfolding in Berkeley."

Good, so you admit you are wrong. Glad to see it.

"Thats when she said they wanted the station provided free. " No one ever said that the protests by KPFA were about getting the station funded for free. No one.

"If you like, I can scroll back and find the entry later."

You can't find it because it was never said. I have already asked you to find it and you haven't, for obvious reasons.

"But I'm glad at least you're admitting that isn't true. "

I've never said it was true. I'm so sorry that you have a weakness for facts.

"I think KPFA could manage without the government funds. They could make cutbacks or maybe listeners or supporters would donate the difference. "

I think so as well.

"I already said in the entry before yours that the protesters and staff all denounced the one incident of shots fired into Pacifica offices a few months before the protests and disassociated themselves from it."

So what? One of the rioters obviously did it. They can condemn it all they want but shots fired = violence. Plain and simple.

"So why are you bringing that one incident with the shots up and linking it with the protest after I already addressed it?"

Because you didn't address it. In your quest to bend the truth to fit your narrow viewpoint you are dodging the issue.

"I think you're not interested in the truth, just in manipulating people and spreading disinformation. "

I don't think you'd know the truth if it sat on your face and wiggled. You have constantly spewed out half truths and distortions, misrepresented facts and tried to put words in our mouths. You have made false accusations of racism and refused to admit that you were wrong until backed in a corner. On top of that, you are trying to pigeonhole me in the above statement. Quite a common liberal tactic for someone who has no facts left.

"Assembling without a permit and breaking laws is not in itself violence."

Oh no?? Firing gunshots is violent. One of the rioters did that.

"No protester ever hurt anyone. The police did hurt some protesters."

I already said in the entry before yours that the protesters and staff all denounced the one incident of shots fired into Pacifica offices a few months before the protests and disassociated themselves from it. So why are you bringing that one incident with the shots up and linking it with the protest after I already addressed it? I think you're not interested in the truth, just in manipulating people and spreading disinformation.

Monica, your weakness for facts is exceeded only by your ideological myopia. NOBODY said that the protests were about keeping the station 100% funded by the government. Let me repeat that because I feel it needs repeating. NODBOY said that the protests were about keeping the station 100% funded by the government. I challenge you right here and now to prove me wrong on that point.. No reader would get the impression that this is what anyone said unless they were galactically stupid AND unable to click on a link. Joy said from the get go how much they received in federal funding and she also provided a link to their financials. All anyone has to do is look at the financials that she provided a link to. No reader with any grasp of facts (which excludes you) would get the impression that KPFA was 100% funded by the government given the information provided. Period.

"Then one of the posters on this board had to admit the tax money only covered 10% of the budget and the other 90% comes from listener donations, other private contributions and volunteer labor. I was just pointing out the inaccuracy of saying the KPFA listeners wanted the station free."

We stated from the get go that this was how much money they received! Do you have absolutely NO short term memory?! There was no inaccuracy except on YOUR part when you stated that they received NO federal funding. The only mistake was made by you. And as I clearly showed, KPFA could not operate without the federal funding unless they made major cutbacks or decided to go into the red (that means have net losses).

"I said that I myself think accepting government funding was a mistake and a compromise of the original mission of the Pacifica Foundation, which was to refuse advertising revenue and other funding from large institutions in order to have an independent station."

Then why are you calling us fascists for not wanting our tax dollars to fund left wing pet projects??? Hrm??

"The comment on "nostalgists for Mussolini" had nothing to do with KPFA. It was a response to a comment Michael made about some posters he thought were trying to control the board and drive certain people off they disagreed with."

I understand to whom the comment was made. What I don't understand is why you made it. Nobody has tried to chase anyone off the board.

"Vlad, thank you for posting the link to the newspaper article which told what really happened at KPFA in July 1999."

Someone said the people protesting to keep KPFA open wanted the station provided to them FREE. A reader would get the impression the government was covering the 100% of the station's expenses and programmers and listeners were contributing or doing 0. Then one of the posters on this board had to admit the tax money only covered 10% of the budget and the other 90% comes from listener donations, other private contributions and volunteer labor. I was just pointing out the inaccuracy of saying the KPFA listeners wanted the station free.
..."
and stated that we didn't want your radio station funded (even partially) by our tax dollars."I said that I myself think accepting government funding was a mistake and a compromise of the original mission of the Pacifica Foundation, which was to refuse advertising revenue and other funding from large institutions in order to have an independent station." You had nothing leftof substance to say, so you resorted to the famous insult that all liberals do when they have nothing left: the fascist label. But in doing so you made yourself look even more ignorant since what we are advocating is nothing even close to fascism
The comment on "nostalgists for Mussolini" had nothing to do with KPFA. It was a response to a comment Michael made about some posters he thought were trying to control the board and drive certain people off they disagreed with.

Vlad, thank you for posting the link to the newspaper article which told what really happened at KPFA in July 1999.

While we're on this subject, an answer to a question I didn't get around to answering earlier. Mention was made of an inciden t in Spring 1999 when the conflict between KPFA staff and the National Board of the Pacifica Foundation when someone shot into the offices of the Pacifica Foundation, which at the time were in the same building as KPFA. The shooting was condemned by station staff on the radio and during speeches in peaceful rallies in front of the station a number of times. The protests were non-violent and also legal means were used to challenge the power of members of the Pacifica Board who didn't share its traditional mission.

So, if this is an evil act 9and I’m not saying it is), then by your logic aren’t you doing something very evil by digging up Joy’s comment?? Especially since you purposely left out the apologies she made afterwards?? Can you even see your hypocrisy?

”This is a typical right-wing tactic, to treat all people who do not support their agenda as if they were all part of one unit and all exactly alike, and then equate them with the worst extremes attributed to leftists or liberal.”

Right-wing tactic?? Ahh yes you mean the truth! Again you make a blanket accusation. I’m going to ask you to back this one up as well. Don’t worry, I’m not holding my breath. All this from the person who attempted to label all those that disagree with her as “nostalgists for Mussolini”. I find it incredibly ironic that she accuses us of doing things she herself is doing.

”I am a unique, special individual. I thought conservatives believed in treating people as individuals. Yet instead of really reading my words and analyzing them separately, you link them with your stereotypes about "liberals".”

You are a liberal lemming that is virtually incapable of thinking for yourself. You spout the typical liberal rhetoric and then when it is refuted using simple logic and facts (as all liberal rhetoric can be), you resort to namecalling and pigeonholing. You want to be treated like an individual? Then act like one and not like a robot programmed by James Carville. “As for the hijackers supposedly believing they would go to heaven and be with 70 virgins, we don't know for sure if that is true, but if it was, then they were certainly deceived. “

Actually we DO know for certain that it is true. This is a fundamental belief of Islam. If you die in a Jihad you go to heaven, get the 70 virgins or whatever, all is good. They believed this. But that isn’t even the point. The point is they went of their own free will. Whether or not they were being led by some moron in a turban doesn’t change the fact that they made the choice to go. Conservatism is about accepting responsibility for your actions and not shifting blame.

”Would you react the same way to my statement if it came from a conservative who agrees with your views?”

A conservative who agreed with my views wouldn’t peddle this tripe.

”Joy's joke really did in a sense condone the mass murder of people at the World Trade Center, just because they may have exercised the right that American Democracy gives them to vote for the candidate and party of their choice and Joy doesn't like the choice they made. “

I’m not surprised you may think this. But to anyone who can think for themselves it did not condone that act. Make of it what you will, but given your lack of ability to interpret statements, I won’t be surprised when nobody takes you seriously.

”Joy wishes Americans didn't have the freedom to choose between different political candidates or political parties to vote for. “

I NEVER said their act was not evil. You are putting words in my mouth I didn't say to smear me and all people who don't accept your right-wing line. You had to dig a long time to find something to twist and smear me. You are doing something very evil in digging up a comment I made from months ago and twisting it to make it look as if I condoned the acts of September 11. By making the choice to do this, you have given up any right to be respected or loved or feel good about yourself. Vlan, you are disgusting!!!!!

This is a typical right-wing tactic, to treat all people who do not support their agenda as if they were all part of one unit and all exactly alike, and then equate them with the worst extremes attributed to leftists or liberal. I am a unique, special individual. I thought conservatives believed in treating people as individuals. Yet instead of really reading my words and analyzing them separately, you link them with your stereotypes about "liberals".

As for the hijackers supposedly believing they would go to heaven and be with 70 virgins, we don't know for sure if that is true, but if it was, then they were certainly deceived. I never said their act wasn't evil. I said part of the evil was that in addition to the innocent people killed by these acts, the people who order them are wasting the lives of the young men they send to their deaths. Would you react the same way to my statement if it came from a conservative who agrees with your views?

Joy's joke really did in a sense condone the mass murder of people at the World Trade Center, just because they may have exercised the right that American Democracy gives them to vote for the candidate and party of their choice and Joy doesn't like the choice they made. Joy wishes Americans didn't have the freedom to choose between different political candidates or political parties to vote for. When she says God has a preference as to how we should vote, and wants to kill off Democratic voters, she's displaying the same thinking as some extremists in Muslim countries who think Allah wants people to vote for a party which gives the mullahs they consider to be correct Muslims power to run the country. If this act was done by Muslim extremists, their reasoning is probably similar to Joy's.

Saying they are victims IS excusing them from what happened. And yes they did benefit from what happened. Their goal was acheived. And as for them being sent out, they went willingly. Nobody forced them. They went on their own accord and became mass murderers.

Speaking of condoning the terrorist acts of September 11, I found this little gem from Joy.:

- I have a theory about Hillary and New York, but some might not find it humorous. Although it's meant to be funny, so please take it that way. I figure New York has been targeted will all these planes because they elected Hillary and God is really pissed about that. He wanted them BOTH gone. Ok... throw rocks at me if you must. :o] Joy USA - Friday, November 30, 2001 at 11:17:15 (EST) from dialup-64.158.227.156.Dial1.Phoenix1.Level3.net

I wonder how "funny" survivors of the crashes and building collapses or those who lost loved ones that day would find this "joke".

I am not excusing what those suicidal murderers did. I'm just pointing out that since they also killed themselves they did not benefit from their actions. Somebody sends these men to their deaths and has them kill many innocents in the process and is getting something out of it, perhaps power?

Oh God the victim excuse!! LOL Yes they were forced to do it! Someone MADE them. God that is a sad excuse.

"I think it is very presumtuous of some posters to act as if they own the guestbook and have the right to decide who posts here."

And Monica said the terrorists in the planes were victims, just like the people they killed.